Minimap Tankview Extended mod legality questionable on NA server

[Bavor]

I found out recently when I filed a support ticket that the Minimap Tankview Extended mod might not be legal on the NA server or its legality is questionable depending on who at Wargaming NA is interpreting the rules.

 

I filed a support ticket because a player on my team was making racist comments about people with darker skin tones, pro Hitler comments, and comments about putting Jews in ovens in the in game team chat.  I received the usual canned response that Wargaming will investigate it, however they can't tell me if they issued sanctions on the layer.

 

Then I received a 1 week ban for illegal mod use based on the in game screenshots I provided.  After contacting some Wargaming North America employees I know through the official forums, I had the matter cleared up and the ban reversed.  I was banned due to a misunderstanding of some of the rules.

 

Previously, Wargaming NA employees said that the Minimap Tankview Extended mod was legal based on the rule that mods are legal if they give you information based on what you can see yourself and what team mates can communicate to you.  The rule that said prohibited mods include "Mini Map modifications that passively provide information to the individual player without the use of active teamwork."  The mod's legality is in question based on how you define "Active Teamwork."  Now some Wargaming customer support employees are stating that "active teamwork" means having active communication with a team mate on another part of the battlefield(such as voice communications during clan wars) and the mod isn't legal because you don't have active communication with all of your team mates in pub battles.  I was told to stop using the modification because customer support won't reverse any future bans I get for using that mod.

[Quaksen]

Interesting. And so lovely that Wargaming can't decide. Yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, maybe, etc. 

[Bavor]

The mod was said to be legal back in the spring of 2015 by Wargaming NA employees on the forums.  Earlier versions of the mod that showed tank turret direction outside the draw box were illegal.  Wargaming NA has tried to clear up the questions about legality of mods, but that sometimes creates more confusion based on interpreting terminology such as "active teamwork."

[My_Gaming_TV]

I doubt that Aslain would put mods in the pack if he knew they weren't legal but then with anything written or stated as far as rules go things change and there are amendments to rules oftentimes without knowledge by everyone. But it is a good subject to get further clarification on before anymore players get banned by wargaming for illegal mod use. I been told that hitskins were too but not by a wargaming employee but haven't had any problem submitting screenshots with hitskins active on my tanks and getting banned......

7 hours ago, Bavor said:

Then I received a 1 week ban for illegal mod use based on the in game screenshots I provided.

Wargaming should have contacted you prior to banning you about the mod and it's complete BS that they didn't and just swung the banhammer on you like that. I get that they don't have to and completely understand that but it would have probably saved you and them a lot of problems before they started........... but that is my own opinion

[Quaksen]

There are some fishy mods in the modpack, and they're generally marked as such.

Minimap Tankview for example - streamers have been banned on EU for using it - since they're showing the mod.

But EU doesn't have a mod list, like the other servers does.. it's just the same old WG will say "Use your own judgement" and what not..

And if you argue the other servers say something else, they'll just say, well, those are the other servers, and we're WG EU.

[My_Gaming_TV]

Shouldn't the rules be the same across all the servers? That would make more sense......... I have noticed that in the modpack that he has marked certain mods with countries they cannot be used in or shouldn't be used in..... That does help..... 

[Aslain]

Here is some reference: http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/295182-09141-lamp-lees-all-mod-pack-xvm-installer-w-image-sound-preview/page__st__1780__pid__9114544#entry9114544

[Bavor]

8 hours ago, Aslain said:

Here is some reference: http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/295182-09141-lamp-lees-all-mod-pack-xvm-installer-w-image-sound-preview/page__st__1780__pid__9114544#entry9114544

 

Pigeon_of_War is now the Assistant Producer for WoT NA and a WoT NA Forum Administrator.

 

When I told Pigeon and GhostPrime about the issue, all of the Wargmaing employee replies in that Prohibited Mod Q&A thread on the WOT NA forums were deleted.  Then a few hours later the thread was moved or deleted.

 

I'd advise against players on the NA server using the mod if they stream or if they plan to ever send screenshots to support.  I'd recommend they send the replay to support instead of screenshots if they use that mod.

12 hours ago, Davidinlv82 said:

Wargaming should have contacted you prior to banning you about the mod and it's complete BS that they didn't and just swung the banhammer on you like that. I get that they don't have to and completely understand that but it would have probably saved you and them a lot of problems before they started........... but that is my own opinion

 

I also lost two days of premium time due to the ban because the ban started on Thursday and the issue didn't get resolved until Friday afternoon.

[My_Gaming_TV]

5 hours ago, Bavor said:

I also lost two days of premium time due to the ban because the ban started on Thursday and the issue didn't get resolved until Friday afternoon.

I would make them give you those 2 days back for the fuckup and the trouble especially if it was found that you didn't do any wrongdoing and it was a miscommunication on their end..... 

[Aslain]

14 hours ago, Bavor said:

 

Pigeon_of_War is now the Assistant Producer for WoT NA and a WoT NA Forum Administrator.

 

When I told Pigeon and GhostPrime about the issue, all of the Wargmaing employee replies in that Prohibited Mod Q&A thread on the WOT NA forums were deleted.  Then a few hours later the thread was moved or deleted.

 

I'd advise against players on the NA server using the mod if they stream or if they plan to ever send screenshots to support.  I'd recommend they send the replay to support instead of screenshots if they use that mod.

 

I also lost two days of premium time due to the ban because the ban started on Thursday and the issue didn't get resolved until Friday afternoon.

 

So to sum it up, are they (WG) considering this mod illagal on NA currently and actively banning for it? Do you have some screenshots from their support to back it up?

[My_Gaming_TV]

How they gonna do shit like that and expect us to know what the hell is legal or not?

[Quaksen]

9 minutes ago, Davidinlv82 said:

How they gonna do shit like that and expect us to know what the hell is legal or not?

One word: Wargaming.

 

Hehe. It's pretty silly by now... so they suddenly removed the posts saying it was fine to use, and EU doesn't have a list at all, but they still decide to ban some people for showing it (Screenshots, Streaming, and the likes)

[My_Gaming_TV]

1 minute ago, Quaksen said:

One word: Wargaming.

Wouldn't something like this cause more of a headache than it would if they just cleared it up once and for all for everyone?

[Quaksen]

6 minutes ago, Davidinlv82 said:

Wouldn't something like this cause more of a headache than it would if they just cleared it up once and for all for everyone?

It is causing headaches, for players, modpack makers, and what not..

Would be so nice if they got their act together, made a proper list, and started dealing with things.

 

Personally, I cannot see the issue with this particular mod, the information you get, is something you can very easily get anyways.

[My_Gaming_TV]

10 minutes ago, Quaksen said:

It is causing headaches, for players, modpack makers, and what not..

Would be so nice if they got their act together, made a proper list, and started dealing with things.

 

Personally, I cannot see the issue with this particular mod, the information you get, is something you can very easily get anyways.

I know it is and I couldn't agree with you more............

[Bavor]

6 hours ago, Aslain said:

 

So to sum it up, are they (WG) considering this mod illagal on NA currently and actively banning for it? Do you have some screenshots from their support to back it up?

 

Here is Wargaming NA Support calling it illegal.

 

All of the posts and threads on the forums where this mod was called legal by Wargaming NA staff have been moved or deleted.  I did a search last night and none of them appear in search results.  All links to the posts calling the mod legal are dead.

[My_Gaming_TV]

Now I'm confused, if the mod was ok to use and they removed the suspension then why are they calling it illegal? Sounds like a bigger mess than what I would like to have dealt with..... The legality of the mod seemed to have been taken care of by following the rules set forth in the guidelines I seen in one of the above threads about it, I believe the one in the link Aslain posted, and if it follows those guidelines then I'm not sure why they are making it a big deal still. I don't use the mod but this just makes me wonder what else is legal or illegal that we just don't know about. Aslain I know you really try hard to make sure that we all have legal mods , doubt you would go and put something in the pack that raises concern....... So how is it we can get straight answers from Wargaming?

[Quaksen]

You think we'll get a straight answer from Wargaming? Hehe...

Customer Service monkeys don't give proper replies in most cases, sadly...

We'll just have to assume it's deemed illegal from now on, and wait for any news posts by them and the likes.

[My_Gaming_TV]

1 minute ago, Quaksen said:

You think we'll get a straight answer from Wargaming? Hehe...

Customer Service monkeys don't give proper replies in most cases, sadly...

We'll just have to assume it's deemed illegal from now on, and wait for any news posts by them and the likes.

Seems unfortunate a hugely popular game like this from a company like Wargaming would have customer service so poor sometimes...... Almost like they just don't care about it's customer base anymore...... Especially when it comes to mods...... I kinda found that out when I put in a ticket about a problem with latency that was being caused at their game servers and all they could do was blame the use of mod packs when I showed them my pingplotter report showing them that it was at the server not on my end, even with no mods installed they still was blaming mods.....

[Quaksen]

That sounds exactly like their support, whenever you contact them about issues... "It's mods fault! Remove mods!" but dude, I told you there's no mods installed.. "Remove mods!!!"

[My_Gaming_TV]

That kind of support isn't going to keep players.........

[Quaksen]

Sadly a lot of companies seem to outsource their customer service, which reduces the quality, but probably ups the quantity of people. But what good is that, if most of the replies aren't read properly, and met with a copy/paste reply..

 

Eh.. maybe some day we'll have a proper list of mods, one that is for ALL servers, not just one, and another list for another and so on. Fingers crossed.

[Bavor]

On 10/22/2016 at 7:14 PM, Davidinlv82 said:

I would make them give you those 2 days back for the fuckup and the trouble especially if it was found that you didn't do any wrongdoing and it was a miscommunication on their end..... 

 

That would mean dealing with their customer support again...

 

I was talking with leeuniverse who makes his own mod pack and he said based ont he reasoning that Wargaming gave about legality of mods before that the mod should be legal since it gives you nothing a zoom out mod doesn't.  He was previously told it was legal.

[Darth_Clicker]

In my opinion, the problem with mods and WarGaming is that they do not have any sort of consistency from one Customer Service rep to the next.  The judgements on whether or not a rule was violated in game is simply left up to the judgement of the Customer Service person viewing it at that moment.  This part of WarGaming is the worst of any company I have dealt with in my entire life.  They banned me for 24 hours because of inappropriate comments in chat, but would not or could not tell me what I said.  Yeah...I was guilty in the past of calling people noobs, telling them that Tarzan just called and said for all monkeys to turn his computer off...and things such as that.   After that ban, I learned that all people do not appreciate my type of humor.  So, I very rarely make any sort of comment that could be taken as offensive.

 

But, it is completely not fair to the players to ban some and not ban others playing the same game.  Rules that could result in a ban when broken need to be clearly defined and provided to all who play the game.  Otherwise they are not rules....only opinions.

4 hours ago, Quaksen said:

You think we'll get a straight answer from Wargaming? Hehe...

Customer Service monkeys don't give proper replies in most cases, sadly...

We'll just have to assume it's deemed illegal from now on, and wait for any news posts by them and the likes.

I can just imagine that the number of ridiculous tickets that are submitted to Customer Service each day is a mind boggling amount.  It probably is really easy to simply not read the complaints carefully but just copy and paste some sort of generic reply and only read things carefully the second or third time around.

[pabnchew]

To clarify this post pertains to NA server.  No clue as to other servers since different servers have different mod rulings.

 

Just like to point out that that mod is and has been in their both their prohibited mod thread AND support articles for quite some time.  BUT the OP is correct there is, or maybe the correct term now is was, conflicting information about it by WG staff in open forum as well.  One of these incorrect "rulings" was that it was legal as long as it was within VIEW range (not render range mind you) since you could ascertain that info by other means whether it be looking at the tank(s) in question whether by you or someone else on the team.

 

Support article (note the map screenshot), https://na.wargaming.net/support/kb/articles/294

 

Forum thread which is basically a copy/paste of the article (note the map screenshot), http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/501557-policy-on-prohibited-modifications/

 

Note the mini map picture which is the last one in the thread and the article.  This tank view extended mod they refer to it as FOV turret indicator in the thread/article.  Also what about the turret direction marker in the direction indicator mod?  It would follow it is banned since it's the same information.   To clarify there are two versions of the direction indicator one which just shows direction to the enemy via a carrot type marker which, by my understanding, is legal as long as it only shows spotted enemies.  The one that I'm referring to is has that marker or carrot imposed onto a circle which gives the turret direction or FOV via by it's position on the circle. 

 

Also a question re: enemy reload timers.

 

Also note that on the map picture in question an enemy loading circle is also banned.  The circle in question doesn't have a specific reload rate listed or for that matter any reload rate listed.  I've seen it discussed that the enemy reload timers, like Aslain has in his pack, are OK since that info is not on the minimap.  Or that if those mods don't data mine the specific reload they're OK. 

 

Again it needs to be pointed out that the example in WGNA's thread and support article doesn't list ANY time much less one that is the actual reload or data mined. 

 

With the potential for different and conflicting interpretations by NA staff as evidenced by the OP's experience does anyone know for sure. 

 

I know some popular NA streamers run the reload timers like Aslain has in his pack.   I've seen that also mentioned by folks claiming they're legal on NA as long as they don't data mine the actual reload rate and/or appear on the minimap.

 

Also it would seem that NA has made a hard decision on the turret indicator since they've removed staff references to it being OK as the OP mentions.   So much for the next folks making an honest mistake and having threads supporting their claims.  So good job on removing it altogether Aslain.

 

One last thing in closing.  Note both the article and thread mention "Aimbot Mods" as being banned with no further description.  Again going by forum posts (nothing by staff that I've seen mind you) the version that Aslain has is considered OK on NA.  Does anyone have any official confirmation on this?

 

Again in light of OPs experience and WG's conflicting info in his situation and then the removal of those threads/posts should give anyone pause.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2016 by pabnchew
Grammar/spelling

[Quaksen]

pabnchew, the picture you're referencing, is the same picture in the, now deleted, posts that was saying the mod was okay, as long as it didn't work outside of render distance..

The point is moot by now though, as their stance seems to have changed completely.. even though you could easily just zoom out and see it anyways..

 

56 minutes ago, pabnchew said:

I know some popular NA streamers run the reload timers like Aslain has in his pack.   I've seen that also mentioned by folks claiming they're legal on NA as long as they don't data mine the actual reload rate and/or appear on the minimap.

 

One last thing in closing.  Note both the article and thread mention "Aimbot Mods" as being banned with no further description.  Again going by forum posts (nothing by staff that I've seen mind you) the version that Aslain has is considered OK on NA.  Does anyone have any official confirmation on this?

Pretty sure 100% accurate reload timer is impossible - you cannot possibly know what the player has in terms of crew, equipment or consumables. Only the server knows. The mod can "guess" though. The one in the modpack is going by base reload time, unmodified.

 

There's no "aimbot" in Aslain's modpack.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Quaksen

[pabnchew]

41 minutes ago, Quaksen said:

 

There's no "aimbot" in Aslain's modpack.

 

First let me clarify I'm not being argumentative.  Remember this is WG we're talking about...

 

"Aimbot" without any kind of definition is pretty damn broad to be honest and very open to interpretation.   I'm going to go out on a limb and say that WoT consensus - at least by forum posts I've seen consider an integral part of the definition of aimbot to mean it targets weakspots or specific areas (i.e. modules/crew).  Which, using that interpretation, you're right.  Aslain's pack doesn't  contain an aimbot as it doesn't target weakspots or any specific spots like modules/crew.

 

But their definition of aimbot and yours (or mine) may be different.   And me nor you would nor forum consensus would be making those rulings.

 

One (or WG) could argue that the vanilla auto aim is an aimbot since it does the aiming for you, but it's just an approved aimbot.  And again this removing the threads re: the turret indicator without an official forum notification by WG raises an eyebrow.  I'm not saying they're intentionally setting up folks to be hosed, but let's be honest the next player that is honestly running that mod is going to be hard pressed to defend himself since those posts are now deleted.  While Aslain removed it there are likely going to be other mod authors that don't tbh.

 

Hell the forum is full of folks that post about aimbots referencing those mods that do NOT target weak spots or specific points.  It's entirely plausible that WG staff could come to the same conclusion.

 

Again not arguing, just saying. 

 

I know they can't give all inclusive list of banned mods just by nature of them.  But they could and should do a helluva lot better job at getting more specific and in some cases describing what specifc mods are banned. 

 

I've seen them cite in the past that any list is not an exclusive list and all mods are subject to case by case review.  Just because they're not on the list doesn't mean they're OK.

 

And I understand that position.  But they (WG) knows what the most popular mods are or if they don't they should.  So making a specific list of at least the more popular ones isn't too much to ask imo.  Them continuously stating that the natures of mods make it hard to make a list is a poor excuse at least in regards to the more popular mods.

 

Then those thread removals without some type of official notification is just another bad move by them.  And the fact they used that specific map picture as you mention really gives weight to the point - at least imo.

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2016 by pabnchew

[Quaksen]

The autoaim feature could be classed as an aimbot, I suppose - but a very shitty one.  (since the computer aims for you.. hence "aim robot" (aimbot))

 

Aimbots generally aim for weak spots (in Counter-Strike, the head, in World of Tanks, weak armor points, ammoracks, etc) while also leading your target automatically, and what not.

 

I pointed that particular one out, since you sounded like there was one in Aslain's modpack.  (quoted the paragraph in my previous post)

[pabnchew]

 

Looks like Autoaim + may very well be considered an aimbot.  

 

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/516464-could-a-wg-employee-clarify-if-autoaim-aka-autoaim-extended-is-legal-or-not/

 

Also per Ghostprime zoom out, autoaim indication + (already covered above) and reload timers are banned on NA.

 

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/511145-how-do-i-get-get-more-results-other-than-in-game-reporting/page__pid__10377129#entry10377129

 

[Quaksen]

Those replies are laughable, if you ask me.

 

Enabling the ingame autoaiming feature on a target behind a rock doesn't give you any advantage. You'll be aiming at the center of the tank, and thus, if he moves out from behind the rock, you'll have to wait till half his tank is cleared, before you can fire. And he has probably shot you by then.

 

And zoom out - well - it's a part of XVM. o_O